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Author Topic: Brainstorm: Evolving Racer  (Read 519 times)
awakened
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« on: September 17, 2009, 05:05:49 AM »

Hi all,

I might get a bit ahead of myself (and all the rest) but i had did some thinking how one could evolve the Racer (after its more or less finished and working of course) to gradually send it into a MMO direction.

As its all just raw ideas, i'll just write them down, and see if anyone resonates with them, or gets another good idea from it.
Also, as the point when this will be necessary is potentially quite some time away, take it as just possibilities that hopefully spark some inspiration for other, better ideas in someone. Also add a grain of salt.

What i thought of was, how could you make a racing game from a pure racing game into something more, add elements of different genres, add other design patterns and game-theoretical bits and pieces, to make it more complex, but keep the transition gradual, and logical. No player should experience a new feature and say "woah, where did that come from?" but be more like "oh, how come i didn't notice that you can do this" like it's been there all along, because its a natural extension of what already was there.
Of course the latter case is a bit extreme, and pretty much impossible to realize, but thats the archetype of what im aiming at.

As we already discussed some "character" customization in form of ship upgrades and weapons, RPG elements are what comes to mind at first (also because RPGs are probably my favorite genre, but well..).
How about instead of just having a shop where you buy your stuff, limited by money, you actually have to search for the cool gear. You fly a race, get your ass kicked by someone, and think "man, i really need a new weapon, but theres nothing better in the shop", so you go to your local tavern (bar, city square, whatever) and ask around, and some NPC tells you that he heard of some guy on planet X who is a total maniac when it comes to weaponry, so maybe you should ask him. So you fly there, and find him, and he tells you that of course he has his connections, and he can get you what you want, but it won't be cheap. And after some thousand credits he tells you a story of a legendary ancient ship, that supposedly contains some pretty serious firepower, if you can adapt it to your systems, which would require the skills of a high-class mechanic, whom he incidentally knows and would be willing to introduce you to. The parts you have to find for yourself of course, he only can give you a rough location, and the name of the (legendary) ship. So you head there, ask around, and step by step narrow the location down, until you kind of know where it is but also know that the area is not pretty, only pretty dangerous. You set out to find some companions for this monolithic task ...

What this boils down to is of course some sort of quest, to get new gear, but i think it shouldn't be handled like in most MMORPGs, with it being all predictable, and exclamation marks over the heads of the important people, and everyone doing the same stuff, the same way, but more dynamic. The information you get should be partly random, and maybe partly wrong, and the kind of "quests" you get, in form of some gossip or information, should be dependent on what you have, and who you are (yes that part may sound a bit too far ahead alright), and most important: you should have to do some thinking and searching for yourself, without being told "go to coordinate x,y,z, there you find person a who will tell you where person b is, who in turn will give you the item you want". This way it would feel less of a chore of just walking from checkpoint to checkpoint until you collect your loot, but more of an adventure and a real quest, which would also feel MUCH more rewarding. There are enough players out there who want to explore a game, just to find whats out there (which sadly in most MMOs is pretty much nothing apart from the same stuff everywhere else) and to have been there (which in most MMOs sadly isn't very rewarding as it looks like anywhere else anyway) and to be able to return from there saying "I have been to the borders of the X Nebula, flown across the asteroid fields of Y, crossed the magnetic storms of Z, and all i got was this lousy tshirt ... and this Ancient Photon Blaster that reduces even a fleet of battleships to ashes within seconds ... and this weird alien voice message that speaks of some forgotten space station which im off to search for next ... and this interesting device, i don't actually know what it does but its quite nice to look at ... and this alien lifeform, im not sure i should keep it ... and ......". Of course this would be a lot of work for the content creators, and not entirely feasible, but i think it would be worth it.
A similar way to achieve this, would be to scatter lots of stuff and pieces of information about upgrades and parts in the galaxy, so that you may actually stumble accidentally over the location of some awesome part, but as it sounds useless to you, or to much of a bother to go get it, you sell the information to someone who cares. That way there could be plenty of player interaction over this. The cornerstone of this of course, would be that this pieces are unique, so once its taken, its taken. This would have to be countered by somehow generating new hints and stuff to collect all the time (which would fit nicely into the "procedural" part of geist). I think that even if these quest starting points are somewhat similar in phrasing and design, it wouldn't matter that much because the necessity of actual action from the players, not just a passive behaviour of click-everyone-that-has-a-quest-marker, and therefore the increased involvement of the player, would actually make it feel less repetitive.


to finish thought 1, and sum it up:

Scatter information about upgrades in galaxy
wait for players to find them on their own, instead of shoving the quests in their faces with a wooden hammer
let them create their own story this way, instead of forcing them down some predetermined path
give the lazy ones an alternative in form of "normal" static shops, but make the stuff there slightly less awesome
use this as one way among others to enable, and reward, active exploration of the galaxy (as a big galaxy SHOULD be fun to explore)
make the universe worth exploring, and feel less static and more alive
make players actually pay attention to what NPCs say, by making it relevant, if not always obvious or trustworthy
dont provide an easy way to get cool stuff, while it shouldn't take hours on end, it should at least involve you using your brain and your skills to some extent
remove pure playing time as a primary factor in how good you are in-game (of course playing skill gain should still be possible, and necessary, but it shouldn't be a matter of just logging 10 hours of play a day and spending weeks grinding this and that, a task a monkey could do)


One thought is enough for one post, so have your say
~awakened~ all for implementing some elements of the monomyth in any mmo, regardless of genre


PS: as i have my intermediate diploma in the bag since tuesday, i now have a bit more time to think of delusional stuff like this, so expect more on that front Wink
« Last Edit: September 17, 2009, 05:29:44 AM by awakened » Logged
Jochen Stier
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« Reply #1 on: September 17, 2009, 06:47:04 PM »

I like your thinking! You seem to suggest some sort of puzzle solving element. I used to love playing the Myst series games. It certainly would make the game more interesting if we introduced puzzles/quest that lead to better stuff. I wish we could come up with some kind of an algorithm to generate these “quest” procedurally, but I doubt that this can be done. So, it will take a lot of creative work to come up with interesting ideas.

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let them create their own story this way, instead of forcing them down some predetermined path

Somehow the clues must be connected and the must be someway of finding out how to get to the next clue. Once we are at this point I will try to dig out my old Myst and Riven CDs for some inspiration.

The editor with its scripting support and GUI tools will hopefully be an effective tool to create the “quest”. I was a goal of mine all along to give artists/non-programmers a tool to develop more elaborate content, such as a store or a meeting hall.

Quote
PS: as i have my intermediate diploma in the bag since tuesday, i now have a bit more time to think of delusional stuff like this, so expect more on that front
Congrats! Keep it coming?
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TorakunSama
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« Reply #2 on: September 18, 2009, 02:18:02 AM »

Quote
PS: as i have my intermediate diploma in the bag since tuesday, i now have a bit more time to think of delusional stuff like this, so expect more on that front
Congratulations!
I'm having some troubles with my OS, I hope to solve them today and carry on with work!

AS for me I was thinking that the evolution of the Racer, would come with the story. For me this is still the same game, for the stories can just merge...

So here's the abbreviated story:

Humans have been saved from certain death by n Mega-corporations. After searching the galaxy, Pangea was found, The main corporations sent pioneers to go there and conquer the planet, prepare it for colonization.
Upon arrival on the planet, the corporations build small cities one for each, which later will turn into Megatropolis. So in these early days of Pangean colonization, the need for skilled pilots goes rising. The corporations albeit their commercial cooperation, fight over some resources, so many areas in the planet are no flight zones, AA batteries, Air and space mines restrict access there. Many corporation secrets are hidden there. As tension rises, the skilled pilots are required to deliver information and or delicate merchandise, to various points of the growing mini empires. These deliveries  unfortunately happen in fixed paths, these are neutral territory, so other 'racers' often try to intercept the precious cargo. Some races are also organized, so the corporations will know which of them has got faster and reliable communications.
From here on is the evolution...
Racers are initially independent pilots, hired by the different corporations, the pioneers of space flight in Pangea. Then later as the cities grow and cooperation is established (people would not come to the planet if there's war among the Corp. ), the races become part of the tests to acquire a pilot's license. Then more advanced races are for military flight training.
All this implies that academies are running and avatars are enabled.

As for the cities, I'm thinking on platforms. For example, the roads are interconnected platforms with sewers, water,electricity and communications. These platforms have AG (Anti-gravity) properties and float in the air. As these platforms expand, so does the city, as many building areas become available. Only Civil  Engineers can operate construction rigs to build. This way the looks of the cities can be controlled by the Corporate Governments.

Pangea should have a few moons each one with the necessary for the main corporation which we could divide it different groups :
Agricultural, scientific, engineering, mining, military and medical. By necessary I mean, for example, the Agricultural colony can install in the more temperate moon, the one closer to the the planet, and military to the further away moon with hostile climate. These moons are restricted areas for every Government, so to avoid conflicts they built the Megatropolis on the main planet were normal inter corporation interactions carry on normally and peacefully.

Quests to distant planets can be managed later, as the universe grows into a complete galaxy. As the cities grow, the quest to implement and discover new technologies, for the benefit of the human race can be the main ones. As the main factions are added , more complex quests can be implemented. Besides, I'm not very keen for the ''go in search of an ancient or legendary item'' quest, because Pangea is about a new beginning, which means that humans find a new home, with no intelligent life near by. So the '' go in search of a top secret or custom made item'' quest is more likely to fit the theme of the game.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2009, 03:21:46 AM by TorakunSama » Logged

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« Reply #3 on: September 19, 2009, 05:22:37 PM »

I used to love playing the Myst series games. It certainly would make the game more interesting if we introduced puzzles/quest that lead to better stuff. I wish we could come up with some kind of an algorithm to generate these “quest” procedurally, but I doubt that this can be done. So, it will take a lot of creative work to come up with interesting ideas.

I too think that generating something like that fully procedural, would be a daunting task indeed. But i suppose with a few limitations, it should be possible, at least to a degree where it takes a lot of work off the content designers.

And, i think the puzzles shouldn't be as complex as in Myst in general, although iwould find some riddles of that caliber a invaluable addition to a game. Stuff like that is in far too short supply in games nowadays (MMOs especially with their oversimplified quest designs). Sadly creating a puzzle that requires players to use their brains, requires even more brain from the creator :/ Anyone here any experience in creating puzzles and riddles ?
Have you played the Zork games btw? I liked Zork:Nemesis at least as much as Myst and Riven, and they sure can provide some inspiration as well ^^

I think i will try to come up with some way to generate "puzzles" or quests based on a set of simple axioms or something like that, if i find the time. As we are nowhere near needing something like that i guess i don't need to hurry.
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Jochen Stier
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« Reply #4 on: September 20, 2009, 10:16:15 PM »

I have never played Zork. For a while I was really waiting for something like Myst to come around again, but then gave up waiting. I think it would already be a good idea to adopt some the puzzles in existing games to a new genre. Maybe it’s possible to disguise them enough …
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« Reply #5 on: September 20, 2009, 11:21:00 PM »

Yes, we can adapt puzzles, traps. Alternate paths to the game. We can decide on few permutations. Can we try something like this?

suppose there is a set of answers to puzzles on 1st level {A,B,C}, like choose path A,B,C.

The user will choose one. But the output of choosing one can change (what will account to this change we will decide later.). But these outcomes will be chosen from the set {O1,O2,O3} always. This can be like entering different worlds.
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« Reply #6 on: September 21, 2009, 03:36:00 AM »

Ah! Puzzles!
Now, that is quite feasible and less complex. Instead of social puzzles, we can start with physical ones. We could use the most common type: map + keys+ avoid traps. Then we need buildings with tones of traps, multiple entrance, multiple rewards. These rewards must be always different and with loosing quality, which means, that the first guy to succeed in accessing it, will get a priceless artifact, then the second a high level upgrade, the third gets tones of gold , the rest gets a lot of gold. Besides one having too many paths to choose from, one can only choose once.

Evolving could be chapter 2 of our story, the arrival of people to the colonies. Then all factions get restructured and many secret projects, facilities are shut down/locked by 3D labyrinths, etc. These secret places, are spread from asteroids, to distant planets in the system. Small moons are favored since they are often ignored. Also most of these facilities are in former military territory, so going there can 'unleash the dogs'!

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Anyone here any experience in creating puzzles and riddles ?
I believe we can brainstorm that! Example, if I had to close a facility what would I do? I'll bury it, but make sure I can still enter it if I need to retrieve some vital info. Then what traps do I set? According to the path taken, some will be deadly, others will get the intruders trap in a jail. Ans so on and so forth!
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